Carroll & O’Dea Lawyers is about to experience a key milestone. On 31 October, the firm will celebrate its 125th year anniversary.
As the firm prepares to celebrate, its managing partner Hanaan Indari chats with the LSJ about the importance of values, the changes she has witnessed in the 27 years she has been with the firm, and how the practice of law has evolved.
What inspired you to pursue a career in law?
I finished school in 1990. I started an arts degree at the University of New South Wales, and I majored in English Literature and Political Science, which I really enjoyed. I was always interested in law. My late father was a journalist, so I was quite inspired by him. I sort of had that in the back of my mind but by the end of it, I was interested in pursuing law, so I went to UTS and did law. By the end, I really wanted to practice law, and I interviewed at Carroll & O’Dea lawyers before I started, what was then, the PLT which you could do at UTS at that time. I started [working] at Carroll & O’Dea the day after I finished university at UTS, and I [was] admitted six months later. I started [in 1997] and I have been there ever since.
You have built a practice in personal injury law, what drew you to this area of law?
I love working with people. I grew up in a very vibrant, [and] very rich upbringing. I’ve got a Lebanese background. My parents were very involved in the community, advocating and helping people, new migrants, all of that. So, I always felt I wanted to be of service. I grew up in that way and I like to help people, so I found doing plaintiff personal injury [to be a privilege]. It was really a privilege to be able to help people and use my strengths in the law. So really, I was driven by that and being able to help people, and I really enjoyed the litigation. Being able to advocate, help others and resolving disputes. So, at Carroll & O’Dea, I was able to build up a very successful large plaintiff personal injury practice over many years.
Personal injury law is one of Carroll & O’Dea’s largest practice areas. How has it changed since you first started?
[Personal injury] represent(s) for us, probably around 60 per cent of the firm’s work (plaintiff). We do defendant [work] as well as other areas, but plaintiff personal injury [work] is a large part of the firm’s practice area and that covers a broad range.
Workers compensation has always been a very big part of the firm’s practice. Going back to the ‘40s and ‘50s, we acted in the first case, bringing new law around the compensation for families where a family member had been killed at work.
Obviously, over the years there has been a lot of legislative change, but we have weathered that because I think we stayed focused and saw plaintiff personal injury work as a strength for the firm.
[It’s] something we are very good at. We are very good litigators. Also, I think what hasn’t changed is you need to have empathy, to be able to act for people who are injured and [are] really struggling in many ways whether it’s physically or psychiatrically. So, you really have to be empathetic, resilient and I think, very determined in wanting to help people. I don’t think any of that has changed.
I think it’s very much a product of your personality and your passion for helping people. I think that’s what drives most plaintiff personal injury lawyers and certainly [what drives] myself and the others in the firm that practice in that space.
How has the practice of law changed from when you first started out in your legal career?
I was very lucky. I think what’s important as a young lawyer is to have good mentors. I was blessed really, that I had very good people training me and whom I could look up to. [Mentors who were] very strong ethically, very passionate about what they did, very good lawyers and [had] very high standard of work. I think they are the key elements that you want as you start your career and, in many ways, that’s why I stayed with the firm. I love the people I work with, the culture which is something very important to me, and my values align with the values of the firm. So I think it’s that kind of high standard of work, [wanting] to help the clients, care for each other and the client, the honesty, integrity, [and] the way you do the work. So I think that hasn’t changed in the firm. In many other ways, of course, we have grown a lot. [The firm had] 70 people when I started in 1997 and we are now 250 staff and we have offices throughout New South Wales, Tasmania, Canberra and Melbourne. So we have expanded in that way.
[In terms of change], technology is the big one. In the early days, probably the first ten years, with heavy paper driven files. You printed everything, not everything was in email the way it is now where you get hundreds of emails a day [and] you have to deal with everything instantaneously. It was more, you got the letter in the DX and you replied to the letter.
Certainly, I think paper was a big one. So, we’ve now gone paper light, [using] the online digital file. I think over time, slowly, that’s made things more efficient in many ways.
[Another change] is remote work which, like many people, we adopted, although we did have quite a number of people including myself who worked at home before the pandemic. We have adopted the hybrid work model in our office.
Speaking of the pandemic, you were appointed as managing partner in July 2020. What was the biggest lesson you learnt?
It was a challenge. The firm, we had a succession plan, and I was due to commence on 1 July which I had already known about pre-pandemic. I think it was adapting in the sense that I was not only just doing my work as a lawyer remotely, which people were adapting to and that presented its own difficulties and challenges, but I think running a firm completely remotely was quite daunting initially.
But I was well supported. We had a good team. We are communicating daily almost which I think was positive and we were trying to think of ways to bring people together and keep that focus on personal interaction, supporting people while going through this challenging time. I think the important lesson was resilience really. Just keep going and don’t give up.
Significantly, you are the first woman to hold this position in the firm’s history. Can you tell us a little bit about your experience?
I think there has only been three managing partners before me. So, for a firm with a long history, that’s quite extraordinary. It’s a great privilege for me to lead a firm like Carroll & O’Dea and to be leading it at a time [when we are] celebrating 125 years, that is a great honour and privilege.
[It is] really extraordinary and a testament to all of those who’ve come before me and worked so hard through the firm for so many years. I think it’s underpinned by our strong values based way of practising [law]. And I think diversity is one of those.
It’s a great honour to be the first female managing partner and the most rewarding part for me is that, I hope, I can inspire other people in the firm from whatever background they might be from, that they could also achieve whatever it is they are passionate about. There are no barriers in a firm like ours and within the profession, we are getting better at it too. That’s the most important thing.
How is Carroll & O’Dea encouraging or promoting diversity in the firm?
We set a target a few years ago to have 40/40/20. We aim to have 40 per cent female partners by 2026. I think we are currently at around 38 per cent so we are getting there. Certainly, everyone can do better and we are trying I think in terms of the pandemic and the flexible work, we have a Diversity Committee and we are trying to stay in regular communication with females and others [with] parental or caring responsibilities to ensure that we can support them and what it is they need from us as a firm.
For example, one of the things that came up when I first came into the role, and we started to have these discussions was, women that went on parental leave and had, for example, a busy litigation practice and then stepped away from it and when they came back, the difficulty they had in rebuilding their practice because they stepped away from it, someone else probably has taken over those matters.
We are looking at ways to improve those sorts of things, perhaps they stay in touch a little bit whilst they are on leave, just to have that regular contact and communication so when they come back it’s not as daunting and challenging for them. I think the key is to respond to what it is they need to be at their best and to be able to practice.
You hear a lot about women that step back in the profession. They perhaps seek corporations or in-house roles because they are deemed to be more suitable due to their parental and other responsibilities. I think you are losing out because all those women can offer wonderful things to a firm.
There is data across the industry [that] if you have a diverse firm, you will perform better financially and otherwise. So, it is important to retain women and other people from diverse backgrounds as it improves your business.
Looking back at the history of Carroll & O’Dea, can you tell us about the firm’s history and where to from here?
JJ Carroll started practising law in October 1899 not far from where our office is currently [located on] Elizabeth Street in the city. To put that into perspective, Tony Carroll is senior legal counsel in our firm at present. JJ Carroll was his grandfather.
In those early years, it was really about providing access to justice and protecting people in the right. I think one of the early matters we’ve got a record of is JJ acted for two Chinese market gardeners who successfully sued the then Alexandria Council for damage to their garden.
JJ then merged his firm with that of Cecil O’Dea who is Michael O’Dea’s father. Michael is also still at the firm. Michael was the managing partner for 30 years [before] retiring from that role in 2006.
In 1952, JJ Carroll and Cecil O’Dea won compensation for the widows of the workmen that were killed in the Burrinjuck [Dam] disaster. That was a time when compensation for family members of people killed at work was unheard of, so they were quite groundbreaking in many ways. Even in those early days, that kind of set the scene for the work we do today including Stolen Generation work and Aboriginal deaths in custody.
I guess the challenge for us is it’s extraordinary, we have come this far. We are very proud of that, but we certainly don’t take it for granted. It’s still hard work. We want to exist in another 125 years and beyond.
With 125 years history, there is a lot of tradition underpinning that. How do you balance tradition with new ways of practising law?
Absolutely, I think that’s the challenge. We want to remain true to our values because we think that’s what stands us out in the marketplace … we focus on these kinds of traditional values of honesty, integrity, care, collaboration, community [and] diversity. But equally, we have embraced and are continuing to embrace new technologies [including] ways to do the work more efficiently and that’s really to help our clients keep the costs of services down. That’s a big challenge in the current market [with the] costs of living.
What advice would you give the new generation of young lawyers or those seeking to move into senior management or leadership positions in their firms?
I think the key is to be authentic. I think it’s being true to yourself. I think you need to have courage, hope, optimism and [be] able to inspire others.
I think the critical thing is to find an area you’re passionate about, really hone it so you excel in it [and] become very good at your craft.
I think it’s important to find a good mentor or sponsor and to network as much as possible. Get involved in the community in particular the areas that you are interested in. I think that’s very important.